i mean you were in two thousand peace prize as a member of the panel. hello michelle welcome to the show it was a pleasure thank you very much for being with us well since you're here in russia and i want to i want to start with their russian problem and one of them is the fact that russia's ecological sustainability record is none of the best in the work so do you think it may change in the near future and are there any other technologies you invented already used in russia well firstly russia being the primary energy producer has had a very large amount of very cheap energy in the past and of course that's meant that power production doesn't exactly have the highest efficiency many of the stations are very old and so you can imagine that power production in this country

is going to have to change radically in the immediate future just for the reason of replacing all power stations with new equipment so you have some very serious choices to make has to how you develop your industry and you have to decide on producing power as cheaply as you can fewer people but on the other hand you've got to make it as clean as possible. and that means you'll have to have a mix between renewables and new clear and fossil fuel energy well that this is a you mentioned there should be one of the biggest producers. you know what i think a similar problem. britain faced a similar problem going britain used to be one of the biggest co-producers in the world you were that you were one also of the. girders of coke absolutely had.

and somehow you cope with your you know i mean you you cope with the problem i mean there's no there's no more smirks margolin that used to when i can remember when the london smogs were so awful the traffic came almost to a hole through and the the air became too thick to breathe and it also caused a huge increase in death rate for here and that was combated by sulfur removal from conventional coal fired power stations but mainly also by the fact that we were very lucky to this to discover north sea natural gas and of course the replacement of coal fired capacity with gas turbines which have to actually know sulfur emission was a big step forward. that didn't solve our pollution problem in terms of c o two emissions really did clean up the atmosphere in terms of acid gases looks any little tick it looks a lot better and i think that in russia i believe you do have quite a lot of diesel for

a zation capacity but i think there are still many power stations that have no sulfur removal systems so that's where you have to really start mr allonby you are the winner of the of the latest global energy price will how can you explain why did they choose you as the prize winner this year. and wonder it was a really amazing surprise to me and something i certainly hadn't expected causes you to look back on what you've done in the past i started to work in this area in the one nine hundred seventy s. when we were really looking to produce c o two from power stations to inject into oil fields to recover more oil and this led to me studying the whole business of producing power from coal fired power stations and also natural gas fired stations and to produce the c o two is a useful product and then of course people began to be very worried about global warming. and this became a cause celeb or

a known i've worked in this area now for governments ever since. well you know when i read that your work because i had a specialist and it's in there but i read an interesting thing that people explaining what you did this is what he did was actual likely lead to the turbo in your car engine when they use the exhaust to generate more energy is there roads yes can you just explain in simple words what is it what is it that you really came up with well is it really same as the turbo in the car engine well basically the system we're working on now from that which is the system i worked on from a lot for the last six or eight years is one that uses a completely different if you like fluid level to produce the energy but now in the past we've used steamers our motive force in turbines to produce electrical energy

and then after the second world war gas turbines were used which have errors they're working fluid and what i've been working on for the last few years is a system which uses the impurity itself which is c o two as the working fluid in a turbine system and it's a very simple system actually you burn the fuel say natural gas with pure oxygen. you you you you circulate a lot of carbon dioxide in the system and then you put this mixture of carbon dioxide from the combustion and the recycle carbon dioxide and the steam you produce from the natural gas combustion this goes through a turbine you have a heat exchanger which cools the whole thing down and heats up the recycle stream again so you have just the circulation of c o two but it's not a close circuit you are completely close it and the only carbon that comes out of

the circuit is carbon that was in the fuel to start with so a natural product of the circuit is pure carbon dioxide pressure but listen but you can use the core a bit except now instead of admitting it you use it inside because you continue burning gas oh yes so you get more and more current exactly so you know much of it but you get too much of it no carbon goes in one end and the same amount of carbon comes out the other in continuously and it gets converted from the carbon in the natural gas to carbon dioxide in the product and so the there is no there is no chimney on a station like who isn't you just produce carbon dioxide which would go into a pipeline and then be sequestered or or stored underground maybe it would be put into an oil or gas field that can be used to recover more oil so it's a way in which we can continue to use fossil fuels without the pollution into the

atmosphere we can take all of the pollution out and dispose of it so the atmosphere can be kept clean listen you say the main idea of your work is to create a collage equally sustainable technologies but speculations over environmental responsibility don't usually really work when it comes to big money had been there so how do. do you think industry should be motivated to introduce clean it industry and governments one of the things that i realized after working in the field of c o two free power or pollution free power was that it was going to cost a huge amount of extra money for the electricity we produce and all the existing systems i worked with in the period of the eighty's and ninety's and up to about two thousand they were resulting in technologies which added about forty to sixty

percent of the cost of electricity and this is a very very huge amount to increase our basic energy. this price is far too high so if it if it meant that all the systems we were looking that up to that time you could almost say they were obsolete even before they were introduced they were simply too expensive as so to answer your question the only way that you can make sure that these these environmentally acceptable energy systems are introduced is to make sure that the cost of the energy is the same as the cost of basic power production at the moment without any pollutant cheap cheap is the key word to get work because you know because there's a lot of hypocrisy around these ecological things you're a scientist but when i talk to some people say for example you talked about electro mobiles the electric cars but. people tell me do you know that in order to

charge the battery of your electric car or with electricity you have to burn twice as much or oil then you and then you burn inside the inside the end you're good at is correct. it's not quite as bad as that the engine efficiency is probably about thirty percent more thirty five percent and if you use the most efficient form of energy production from fossil fuel say coal you could perhaps be in the forty's and if you use the system that i've just described you can burn gas derived from coal which would take you into the fifty's and still remove the c o two but the important thing is that with electric power you don't have to pollute the city you can you burn it somewhere else you burn it somewhere else africa remote no no no outside the city you build a large central power station with c o two capture you then produce your electricity for an electric car so that you don't get the pollution inside the city so i mean if you go to some cities in the world you have to exist in

a brown smog continuously some polluted cities are so bad now that it's almost. it's impossible for people cliff there really and you can any you can i mean if you go to some cities in china for example it's continuous brown high all of the time and it smells and it's horrible it's what i saw in beijing before the olympics but the change the situation for the olympics i still. well read the winner of the global and that you prize in two thousand and twelve talking to us in the spotlight spotlight would be back shortly after a break so stay with us they're.

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around russia we've got the future covered. mission free critic ation free transport charge is free. range mentioned free risk free. to tide free. download free bone cancer cloning video for your media projects and a free media dog r t v dot com you. get are sometimes you see a story and it seems so for lengthly you think you understand it and then you glimpse something else and you hear or see some other part of it and realize everything you thought you don't know i'm tom harkin welcome to the big picture.

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welcome back to spotlight i'm al gore in open just to remind you that my guest on the show today is rodney alum winner of the global energy prize in two thousand and twelve. we started talking about about. it being pretty expensive and the technologies powered knowledge is being sponsored. to be ecologically friendly well well you said that industry wants to make money

governments have to save money so it takes it takes more than just words to try to persuade industry and governments to to start thinking green yes so. what are the idea do you have any ideas instead of what will except words and the ideas that can really persuade them that we can't can make it cheap i can only say that currently are. renewable energy and energy from fossil fuels will cost you extremely large amounts of extra money for each unit of electricity from fossil fuels maybe sixty percent more from renewables depending on the type of renewable say wind power which is one of the most popular it could be two to three times as much because of curry very present themselves those professors yes they are experience are expensive so the only way that that

can be introduced is by government subsidy and that ultimately means the taxpayer has to pay for the electricity and there have been a part of this issue that is going out there lou decision and of course it has another really profound effect which is very worrying inevitably the price of energy goes up and we've seen huge increases in the price of natural gas and oil but when you add on the doubling or tripling of the actual cost of electricity production from renewables or from c o two reduced power production using fossil fuels it bears on the least. put the least the very poorest part sections of society the proportion of their income that they have to pay for electricity and their heating goes up and up and up and it's a really unacceptable social problem but the price of new technologies can only possibly go down if they're widely introduced exactly because if they're if there's

something something special it will always be the usual so there's there are challenges which mean that the current methods of power production using fossil fuels has to be improved radically and we have to get the price down and we have to take as our objective power systems which must remove all of the c o two or most of the c o two plus of course all the sulfur another impurities we've got to do. but we also have to find methods of disposing of the c o two the volumes of c o two that will be produced if we have c o two free power from fossil fuels will be vast so there are huge pipeline systems and geological problems in storing that c o two which also have to be addressed but it is vital that we do this particularly in areas where coal is the primary field because coal is very polluting in terms of

the amount of c o two that's produced for each kilowatt that you generate you you. the global and you prize also have been bell peace prize in two thousand and seven zero years of the tree lydia i was almost a year you were a little team so of course it makes it easier for you to talk to government officials you had to try to talk to us into being a classical friendly introduce new technologies but it still is hard is it did you feel that they want it or they just are they all are the arrogant the think there's no i have never found anybody in the government is arrogant about one problem on the one they are interested they are more than interested they're vitally concerned about the whole problem i've yet to find any country in which there are people who just dismiss this i found business people who dismiss it really just to keep their profits high on the other hand if you go to governments they are under tremendous

pressure on the one hand they have voters who want their taxes kept they have various organizations who almost regard pollution of the atmosphere as a religious. thing that they have to follow come what may so they tend to think of this as being something you have to do whatever the cost listen most humans believe that we that mankind is really. ruling out that it but so much say this this is exaggerated that they're the impact impact of men on earth is a smaller then we think we do less damage then that then we bridge then we add to that let it soak so what's your point of view his rights well i think that we've only got to look at the way that the climate is changing to realize that if we look at the frequency of things like her reckons the intensity of the wind speeds the

huge changes in precipitation which have occurred the changes in sea temperature it's a very worrying. development because it appears that the effect of global warming is if anything worse than had been originally predicted and therefore there's no there's no real time for complacency we are forced really to do this because we can't avoid using fossil fuels for the next fifty or sixty or seventy years we're going to find ourselves with an average of maybe sixty percent of our total energy in the world produced from fossil fuels which emit c o two if they're burned without control so we have to solve this problem now in the long term of course we've got nuclear power which is discredited the moment for reasons which everybody understands but which ultimately has got to produce the power that we need in the next say five hundred years but we can't look to that future at the present we have

to recognize that we're going to be stuck with fossil fuels for the next fifty years or so and we can't just burn them in the way we are at the moment and remember you know in this country virtually every fossil fuel power station will have to be replaced in the next twenty to fifty years simply because they've reached the end of their lives what are we going to replace them with same stations or types of station that we have now in which case we'll go on polluting eight. you say in your interview is that we should use or then again as in a way to lead the planet withstand the ecology call pressure what happens if it doesn't what's the worst case scenario well i'm not prepared to look and think of that i'm not prepared to believe that we would ultimately be stupid enough to drive ourselves into a corner which from which we can't escape so i think we have to do something in the next ten twenty thirty years to mitigate this problem and actually stabilize the

whole c o two emissions worldwide it's an immense task and it will require a huge amount of international cooperation. it's something that's got to be done on a global basis and there are a number of countries as we all know who haven't bought into this yet and it's very very important that the whole thing moves forward on a global basis after all we were able to do this with zero zero zero zero was found to be a real real threat and within just a few years there was an international agreement to reduce ozone levels by reducing the emissions of flora carbons and this is had a really beneficial effect on the world and i'm sure we can if we really put our minds to it we can do the same for c o two russia is still one of the biggest oil and gas exporters worlds some people say that it's a blessing i one of those who think it's

a curse really and i think that the present leaders in the kremlin also also think it's it maybe it's on a crusade and they speak more and more about trying to reduce the dependency of russian economy on the exports are drawn materials are hydrocarbons do you think that's really possible in the case where where where there is that it won't for that i mean i don't think i don't think you're going to be able to avoid selling a little bit when gas especially at so. the prices people are prepared to miner so and it's and it's why is developing your plant tree with a huge amount of of of revenue coming to to russia but on the other hand russia has a huge technical and industrial base which can be exploited to help develop these new. technologies for both fossil fuel power generation using new techniques and also your strength in the nuclear

industry russia is probably one of the world think is probably the world leader in nuclear power technology and of course there's huge problems of of perception of nuclear power worldwide and that's really the biggest hurdle to its introduction is what people think about nuclear power they are think of nuclear weapons or they think of the two terrible accidents in a bill in the one in japan. and that's as far as they think they say no and countries of had to as you know polish nuclear power germany and switzerland for example and in japan it's very discredited. and it'll take a few years before people's perception rises again in the meantime we have lots and lots of old fashioned nuclear stations and many of them are still at risk so it's a real problem it is but ultimately nuclear powers got to be the answer for mankind

it gives us abundant feel and abundant sources of energy but there's a lot of work required before we can really start to use it on the many russia and countries like russia we have the saudi arabia so some of the countries big oil and gas producers are the countries who make big big big revenues and selling hydrocarbons maybe these are the places countries who should invest heavily in new cleaner technology and i think that what that means starts to start the ball rolling i mean so to do something except exporting gallons i think you've got to have an industrial base you know russia has the industrial base if you were in the marketing situation for a company you'd perhaps like to go from production through to use and you should really think about the same thing you're producing the the energy the primary energy. if you had the technology and you had a viable for the world war you were contributing to large programs so that you had

a large industrial base remember that the one of the one of the speakers today i said that the power industry was an investment i think of a trillion dollars per year of money i don't know if that's the accurate figure but it's a pretty large figure and if you had to say a fairly substantial share of that as well as your oil and gas revenue time would be a tremendous boost to your industry in the prosperity of your people thank you thank you very much and it was a pleasure having you with thank you very much and just a reminder that my guest on the show today was rodney allen the winner of the global energy prize in two thousand feet up and that's it for now from all of us here if you want to have yourself spotlight just drop me a line spotlight will be back with more face time comment on what's going on in and outside russia until then stay on r.t. and take care thank you good angle of the.

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